Why is no one building a diesel sports car?

"BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather" (bugeyedacura)
09/07/2015 at 01:19 • Filed to: None

I don’t get it. It will give them the fuel economy they need while still putting out gobbs of torque and presenting a more natural driving experience than a hybrid powertrain does. I really don’t get it.

DISCUSSION (36)

Supreme Chancellor and Glorious Leader SaveTheIntegras > BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather
09/07/2015 at 01:23

Because the only people that idea appeals to is us Jalops/Oppo’s...and we never buy anything that manufacturers produce despite how long we complain about it

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > Supreme Chancellor and Glorious Leader SaveTheIntegras
09/07/2015 at 01:27

The handful of jalops/enthusiasts who buy new are too small to single handedly support every half-baked idea. Hence the 130R, 510 replacement, Kia sports car, diesel manual wagons, and a mid engined diesel sports car for less than 35k don’t happen. Development is too high and profits too low and the penalties are nonexistant. None of us buy the profit making SUVs anyways.

BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather > Supreme Chancellor and Glorious Leader SaveTheIntegras
09/07/2015 at 01:30

You think that’s the only people who would buy them? The rest of the world drives diesel everything. There’s the return on your investment right there.

BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. > BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather
09/07/2015 at 01:32

Because a sports car isn’t about efficiency, and while torque is important, feedback is also.

A torque power band between 800 and 2000 RPMs, with a redline 0f 4500, is not a fun engine to get any response from, despite it having a load of torque.

It might as well be a CVT also, and have the engine either idling, or ramped up to it’s peak torque power-efficiency point, and let the CVT handle the changing ground speed. And it might as well be wrapped inside a work truck.

Very efficient, but about as exciting as cold oatmeal. Racing cars have done diesel, but again, with specific gearing and maintaining high ground speed with near steady-state engine RPMS, and nobody cares about whether the driver is enjoying the race, as long as the lap times are low.

Response is the context, and a diesel is not a responsive engine, it isn’t a thrilling sensation for the driver.

Any real sports cars that are hybrids, are relatively mild hybrids, that are meant to boost output, and recover some braking kinetic energy back into useable electricity, which then again, can be used as a momentary burst of power when called upon. It is a power feedback additive, not really as much of an energy-miser system.

Flavien Vidal > BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather
09/07/2015 at 01:38

- No throttle response

-Turbo engine pretty much required

-Not fun (5000rpm “red line” but you have to shift earlier if you want to stay in the torque band... yeah!!)

-No one would buy it because people buy Diesel cars because it’s more economical, not because it’s fun... People on this website like Diesel because they haven’t grown up with them. Once you start driving a Diesel, once it becomes the norm, once gas engines are nowhere to be found (looking at you France), then you realize that fuck, driving a proper gas engine that revs high and fast, with good throttle response is a shitload more fun trhan the diesel eco peace of crap you’re driving right now

Fred Smith > BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather
09/07/2015 at 01:39

Fare ye well, E90 335d. You were too beautiful for this world.

Fred Smith > BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather
09/07/2015 at 01:42

First of all, diesel hasn’t exactly replaced gas power. Just as with hybrids, though it gains popularity, the vast majority of driven cars have completely traditional powertrains.

Moreover, something is on the market that exhibits traits of two popular things together won’t necessarily be a smash hit, no matter how good it is. People love crossovers and convertibles, but nonetheless, the CrossCabriolet is widely panned as a failure. The opposite is also true, of course, and the cross of Hellcat power and modern efficiency that is the P85D proves that sometimes the biggest risks work out. Either way, it’s a lot of money to put into something that right now has a very small market base, something that would need to gain momentum before it were an actual success. Were I given the chance, I’d start with concept feelers, something like the old diesel R8 concept car but on a smaller and sportier platform like the Miata or even the 4C, and if there’s a little bit of demand maybe a limited run.

C9200 > Flavien Vidal
09/07/2015 at 01:58

I really dont get the whole diesel love thing on this site. I keep reading posts about people wanting a brown diesel station wagon - WTF?

NoahthePorscheGuy > BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather
09/07/2015 at 01:58

What about the Ford Focus STD and the VW GTD?

415s30 W123TSXWaggoIIIIIIo ( •_•))°) > BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather
09/07/2015 at 01:59

Audi is winning races with them, I have thought of it too. I would love a twin turbo diesel R8.

Short-throw Granny Shifter is 2 #blessed 2b stressed > BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather
09/07/2015 at 02:02

Don’t Audi and BMW make decent handling cars with high output diesel engines? A diesel engine seems like it would be a weird fit for a purpose-built sports car. The real question is why don’t we get more diesels in the USA?

Shoop > BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather
09/07/2015 at 02:02

Because they don’t sound as good as gas, they have a history of being truck motors and they don’t like to rev, all of which make them shitty sports car engines.

Flavien Vidal > C9200
09/07/2015 at 02:03

It’s the “can’t have it” syndrome... The US does not get those Diesel wagons, therefore they want Diesel wagons... Most have never driven any and yet, they see it as the best thing next to fried bacon.

Diesel sucks, it pollutes terribly (clean diesel muahahaha) and it’s terribly not pleasant to drive.

Fuck Diesel.

Dr. Zoidberg - RIP Oppo > C9200
09/07/2015 at 02:07

That’s more of a FP meme, really, that the ultimate enthusiast car is a brown manual diesel wagon. It’s very tongue in cheek because FP posts mainly about new high-end cars, many of which are completely unobtainable by a majority of its readers.

There are very few oppos or FPers that actually own, let alone daily, a diesel anything.

TheOnelectronic > BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather
09/07/2015 at 02:19

And from what I’ve seen, the rest of the world would rather not drive diesels. They’re seen as something of necessity, not desire. Europe is even increasingly moving to reduce the number of diesels, as they’ve decided the air pollution, even with modern technology and fuel, outweighs the lower CO2 emissions.

Baeromez > BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather
09/07/2015 at 02:27

Diesel? You mean that noisy, smelly, dirty fuel that trucks and other peasant vehicles utilize? Pshaw! No thank you, sir.

Baeromez > BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast.
09/07/2015 at 02:29

Hey, pal, don’t go disparaging cold oatmeal.

AlexTheSeal > BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather
09/07/2015 at 04:18

The rest of the world buys plenty of diesel sports sedans. I know, not quite the same thing. I used to have an ‘87 Mercedes 300D—probably the first diesel sport sedan now that I think of it—that was a lot more fun to drive than most people would think (200 lb-ft in a 3,500 lb car is respectable).

People swap TDI engines into VW Vanagons, and Subaru makes a boxer diesel too that you could put into a Porsche 356 kit car on a VW chassis. :)

Bytemite > BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather
09/07/2015 at 04:34

You need to first understand what putting out “gobbs of torque” even means. If you are one of those people who still think torque = acceleration and “torque is what moves your car!”. You don’t have a real understanding of the relationship between torque and the actual numbers that matter, HP @ RPM, or horsepower curve...

Torque is only relevant in explaining how the engine is producing HP. A typical sports car gasoline engine with a high redline will allow a wide range of control and response. At low rpm, you can drive like a pedestrian car. At medium rpm, you can drive spiritedly. At high rpm, you are driving at full potential. All of this is possible and in your control.

With a diesel, you get power when you press go pedal. No real difference between your low rpm, and your extremely low redline. The diesel won’t be happy to rev that high anyway, and you won’t feel a difference in power, just noise. This is because of two things: your torque is high at low rpm but drops afterwards, and your redline is low.

A real sports car engine has relatively lower peak torque compared to your diesel. But it’s torque output increases with RPM. And this is good, because when you have high torque at high RPM, you are multiplying two high numbers to produce a high product (and what really “moves cars”: HP. Multiply this by the fact that the gas engine will have 3,000 more rpm to multiply the torque by and you have a no brainer as to why diesels have no place in sports cars.

As a visual, let’s imagine you are looking at two typical engines.

Diesel engine is producing 200 ft lbs of torque at 2,000 Rpm BUT rapidly drops to 100 ft lbs at 5,000 Rpm.

200 ft lbs * 2,000 rpm / 5,252 rpm = 76 hp

100 ft lbs * 5,000 rpm / 5,252 rpm = 95 hp

(Even if you went to windy road and said “alright let’s unleash your full potential, car!” You might as well be sitting in traffic because you were already pretty much at your full potential.)

Gas engine is producing 75 ft lbs of torque at 2,000 rpm but gradually increases to 150 ft lbs of torque at 7,000 rpm.

75 ft lbs x 2,000 rpm / 5,252 rpm = 28.5 hp. (This is the power you have to move your hopefully lightweight sports car)

150 ft lbs x 7,000 rpm / 5,252 rpm = 200 hp. (Now this is the power you have to go fast, and you will go fast)

A high torque engine (diesel), is useful in a work truck because you can move more weight and overcome more inertia at low rpm thanks to relatively higher low end HP, NOT because “moar torque”.

samssun > BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather
09/07/2015 at 04:37

Because Jalopnik fanaticism aside, a diesel sports car wouldn’t be very fun. Between direct injection and twin scroll turbos, it’s easy to get plenty of torque off the line without falling on your face at 3500, and when you start throwing tunes on turbo cars the torque ratio skyrockets, so what does the diesel offer?

Ecoboost 2.0 does 245hp, 270lbs-ft, with full boost by 2000. VW’s 2.0T is good for 300hp and 280lbs-ft. The newest VW 2.0 diesel does 190hp and 280lbs-ft, redline 4500. Which would you rather have in your Miata?

Cé hé sin > BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather
09/07/2015 at 04:53

They’re not really sports cars but I can think of the Audi TT, VW Scirocco and Merc SLK.

Hiroku > Flavien Vidal
09/07/2015 at 06:35

As an European, I wholeheartedly agree with this comment. Diesel is an absolutely atrocious fuel whose ONLY advantage is fuel economy. I’d rather go broke paying ridiculous gasoline prices than drive one of those cancerous monstrosities.

Hiroku > Bytemite
09/07/2015 at 06:38

We need more stars for this comment...

Flavien Vidal > Bytemite
09/07/2015 at 06:47

Man you need to do a full article on that, well presented and such... I’d definitely try and push Patrick or whoever will be in charge to get it published on Jalopnik’s FP... This is the best written explanation as to why diesel sucks in a car :)

BiTurbo228 - Dr Frankenstein of Spitfires > BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather
09/07/2015 at 08:16

Yeah it baffles me why Audi hasn't capitalised on both their diesel Le Mans success and the reputation of the R8 as a supercar that you can really live with every day and stuck the V8 TDI or V12 TDI from the Q7 into one.

Echo51 > 415s30 W123TSXWaggoIIIIIIo ( •_•))°)
09/07/2015 at 08:31

Wasn’t there some talk about this existing, a secret v8 or v10 TDI powered mule that had so much torque the engineers considered it unfit for the public?

Cé hé sin > BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather
09/07/2015 at 09:31

One guy did, and he wasn’t alone.

Have a Westfield with a Ford 1.6 diesel from an Escort but with added boost. More here

Kinja'd!!!

hike > Bytemite
09/07/2015 at 10:17

Pretty much helps explain why diesels are efficient in every day use. Most people keep it low in the Rev band during normal use, which is why the diesel works so well for that, but not for spirited driving.

MultiplaOrgasms > BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather
09/07/2015 at 13:30

-sigh- Because diesel, despite what bunch of Audi and Peugeot race cars tell you, is not exactly suited for a lightweight performance car. A big, comfy GT of some sort, sure, covering high distances on a highway is what a diesel engined car is best at.

Grab Paddle > BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather
09/07/2015 at 16:42

They were originally trying to make a diesel R8 but the torque was too much for the transmissions they had available:

gmporschenut also a fan of hondas > BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather
09/07/2015 at 22:23

Having a small rev range would also require a much higher number of gears to properly drive. The number of gears has only recently climbed think how long 5 speed was the standard transmission. With the lower # of RPM the transmission would have to be steep gear ratios to get 0-200 for a sports car. As said a cvt would solve some of this except it would be weird solely controlling speed by cvt vs gear and rpm.

Also weight, previously the majority of diesel engines were all huge, heavy iron cast blocks. This was due to extra strength needed for the higher compression rations 25:1 than the typical 12:1 for a gas engine. This is what killed it for aviation uses as a powerful, efficient engine designed for a very limited powerband would be ideal.

Gonemad > Baeromez
09/08/2015 at 08:51

Raw diesel smells like coconut oil, btw. Burnt diesel is another thing.

And you can put a cigarette off in it. Far safer than gasoline. It doesn’t evaporate as fast too.

Just don’t roll coal. Please.

Baeromez > Gonemad
09/08/2015 at 18:17

You might want to take your sarcasm detector in for a tune up.

Gonemad > Baeromez
09/08/2015 at 18:35

I know it was sarcasm. I just took it, line, hook and sinker, for (failed) comedic effect. I’m a sucker for trollish comments!

Now, I was just surprised that raw diesel could have a rather pleasant smell.

Gonemad > BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast.
09/08/2015 at 18:43

Let me get this straight: you are saying that sports cars are fun because the torque curve is all wonky, the deliver of power is uneven, the car jolts around, giving you that kick in the pants, even if it is not faster, than, say, a whooping flat curve straight from zero RPM’s like an electric motor installed in a Tesla?

I couldn`t agree more. And may I suggest three cars: A Porsche 911, a Mitsubishi Lancer Evo, and a Subaru WRX. All three will bite you in the ass, and all of sudden, whoosh, that turbo lag ends and you enter warp speed, or a ditch. With a torque curve so narrow, you need 8 gears forward. It’s all about what you look for in a car.

BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. > Gonemad
09/08/2015 at 19:33

There is a sweet spot between anodyne seamless, but uninvolved propulsion, and mechanical schizophrenic malevolence.

Not that crazy can’t be fun...

But a nice ramp on the torque curve, rather than a solid flat plateau, or a jagged cliff, can be very sweet indeed, and actually not try to kill you.

One of the reasons I kind of lament the demise of the Porsche atmospheric flat-6 (save for the remaining rare GT3 forthcoming models), being sacrificed on the altar of turbocharging, rather than being parallel offerings.